/hot/ - Hussie On-Topic

>>164
That was where it started, everything past that was further rationalizing or me realizing the potential of stuff implied by the Beta.

>>164
>>165
So he'd be born in 1986 instead of 96? Ouch…

Breath and Light do have a decent amount of similarities when you ignore the dumb "freedom" and "luck" things, and treat Breath mostly as a poetic expression of "wind," which seems like it was maybe the original intent. They're both powerful natural forces that humans can't really perceive directly. They're also commonly portrayed as guides (wind often carrying things or people, where as light merely shows the way). This actually ends up highlighting the big difference between John and GREEN. John tends to bumble his way down the right path without really knowing how or why a bit haphazardly, where as GREEN can see the path clearly and tries to clear the way for it.

The weird part is Breath and Blood also have really good synergy when treating Breath as the bodily function (and "freedom" vs "bonds" is actually a nice duality, too"), so then we start having to go like "is breath extra special" or "does every aspect have an agreeing and disagreeing dual or is breath just extra cool because its the main characters one (ignore tavros)"

>>167
> John tends to bumble his way down the right path without really knowing how or why a bit haphazardly, where as GREEN can see the path clearly and tries to clear the way for it.
The opposite would be true in my ideally written Homestuck.

My connection between Light and Breath was "pneuma"; texture being active with fire and earth.

Granted, this requires making the "Breath" character earth and not wind but so help me God if I have to rewrite more of this shitshow and I can go on about how the elemental waters are muddied in the comic proper. I would say "Breath" is a good case for "not being wind" when you have Space in the question and you need something fucking bound to the troposphere, but I digress.

That is to say that pneuma connected to the ancient Greek understanding of "atomism" and so Breath and Light would be different ways of scrutinizing knowledge down to its most basic components in different ways; how we do this depends on more philosophical jargon.

TL;DR: What you said.
>>168
The joke is that Blood is shit because Tavros does what, ideally, should only be a Blood player's job. Glad Tavros got to do something- hate that it was at the expense of Karkat who's basically a walking punchline by the end of the comic


Again, in my rewrite, there would only be four aspects (directly related to the four classic elements) that are to by indirectly referred to by the names of different God (still Denizens). 12 is fucking stupid and requires so many mental gymnastics to try and make them all distinct and meaningful, see: >>157

I mean ultimately the thing that makes the most sense is "The classpects are generated completely from the ground up for each given session" instead of them being these very specific fundamentals of Sburb. They're still rooted in Sburb fundamentals, but also Sburb is able to stretch them to fit the players etc.

>>170
>I mean ultimately the thing that makes the most sense is "The classpects are generated completely from the ground up for each given session"
That's ultimately how my system would work more or less.
>them being these very specific fundamentals of Sburb.
That's verbatim how it works in the comic.

Is this a roundabout compliment or was this just an unrelated thought in your head?

Hey! I'm rookieanon from >>>/hsg/
So, I thought I'd begin namefagging here since I'll be sharing a resource that I've been using for a long time in order to assess classpects but only as a base, and I really hope this can help at least one of you guys out when it comes to addressing or even viewing how certain characters could behave. It's not an exact science…
https://forum.homestuck.xyz/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1818&p=20889
I'm currently also trying to make it an archive.is incase hs.xyz ever goes down.

besides that, i'll make another post in just a minute to put my thoughts together when it comes to classpecting, although it is more of an amalgam of ideas that I hold, and that aren't as concise because I haven't read a lot of Carl Jung, I admit

>>173
>https://forum.homestuck.xyz/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1818&p=20889
See:
>>157

>I haven't read a lot of Carl Jung, I admit
"I haven't either" but it's more of a focused read. Archetypes (via classpects) can be very loosely interpreted. Jung's psychological interpretation of alchemy, however, I have an entire book reading about and which he has spent a significant amount of his career on.

Mythological Roles are less directly related to alchemy but part of how I'd rewrite Homestuck is to make (hypothetically, the working model is largely- since it itself is a bit of an amalgamation and somewhat internally inconsistent, and is also coincidentally the version Jung most focuses on- the Hellenistic version of) alchemical processes and symbols (and the Jungian interpretations thereof) more thoroughly interconnected with everything else.

To start off, looking at the aspects and classes, I like to think for people and for (in-development) characters they would be rather arbitrary until Sburb actually triggers where it locks in specific roles and mythological goals for all of the characters, with all of them serving a purpose.

I'd like to think that almost all of the characters in Homestuck start off by basically having a "mask" in order to develop themselves, which can especially be seen with how all of the kids interact, some are shaped by paradoxical means [GREEN], others are environmental [Dave], while others come just from basic interaction [Rose & John]

Like a vessel filling up a soul, it requires some sort of structure in order for the idea of "class" and "aspect" to exist

But only then, can a person's identity truly be formed when they reach a certain "climax" of stress; for us in the normal world it would most likely have to be facing our own mortality, similarly to how the Beta/Alpha kids had done through the death of a loved one, a traumatic event, or even just intense stress.

In homestuck however it is far more literal and more in your face, whether it is showing the rising tension outright through a meteor or )(IC and the identity gets solidified, where the mask finally comes off and the id finally forces the person to stop being unconscious and begin to realize their unconscious habits. Hell, this can also be seen throughout the story with the whole idea of the Alpha timeline, where if any character goes "unconscious" they begin to drift and decay, such as John following Terezi on a whim without thinking about the consequences, or even Jake allowing Aranea to 'tap into his potential'

The whole idea of the alpha timeline is to basically allow the "unconscious self" to be "conscious" – This is even emphasized with Jung, the "Undiscovered Self"

To put it briefly without reading the text, it's basically a book that Jung wrote in order to address the "mass-mindedness" of individuals, how to understand, self knowledge and the definition of self knowledge.

How this ties back to homestuck however is basically the players denying themself to submit to a dogmatic belief and to question everything, to be childlike in their approach, whether it is about the world or their identity. It's a clashing of "wills" or ideologies, testing it with the world as it is part of the larger will [Skaia/Sburb], where it binds them and are forced to select how they wish to approach themselves into the world and consequentially, themselves.

The best examples for these, the testing of ideology and "will" would be Dave, where he considers his clones his enemies, those who were unconscious and suffered their fate respectively for behaving in this mass of a single consciousness. The same could be said about Aradia, but not much context is really given.

TL;DR:
Classpecting is incoherent and irrational until an event shapes a person, a "realization" of their own mortality/self. As an amalgam of all their experiences, they begin to shape what class they decide by their "ideology" of the world, but are inevitably bound by Skaia to be with their aspect.

This is further solidified by the idea of the Alpha Timeline, forcing individuals to think of their actions all the time, but if you slip to "unconsciousness", doing something out of habit instead of rationality, you will get executed, because you have "given" control to a consciousness you cannot or wish to clash your ideals – comfortable with who you are.



This probably sounds like gibberish, I apologize if it does.

>>173
>https://forum.homestuck.xyz/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1818&p=20889
wow, you wrote all this?
damn, you're in pretty deep. I didn't expect you to be such a /hot/head from your casual demeanor when you showed up :^p

>>174
I'm probably missing a lot of context when it comes to >>157, so I'm really not sure what I'm looking at other than the dichotomies

>Mythological Roles are less directly related to alchemy but part of how I'd rewrite Homestuck is to make…alchemical processes and symbols…more thoroughly interconnected with everything else.

Kind of like if you actually had the building blocks of "aspect"? Like grist???
I may be a bit thick, I apologize

> Archetypes (via classpects) can be very loosely interpreted. Jung's psychological interpretation of alchemy, however, I have an entire book reading about and which he has spent a significant amount of his career on.
What do you suggest I read? Just so I have something to read while on break @ my job

>>176
It's pretty old I admit! I did have a lot of help from an old friend and her own friend circle, though I've spent a lot of time just trying to refine the ideas and just how they can be interpreted.

Unrelated note, dude, I fucking hate Funk's way that they talk about aspects, but I like how they did classes, I have no idea why a lot of modern homestuck fans act like complete snobs about other ideas when their ideas are literally video related
"hurr hurr here's a new idea to break the chains of thought!"
(proceeds to do the same thing all the people previous to him have done only with music)
fucking jackass.

>damn, you're in pretty deep. I didn't expect you to be such a /hot/head from your casual demeanor when you showed up :^p

i prefer acting like an idiot and like a normie, keeps me sane from the horrors of reality ;-P

>>175
This is vaguely right ("there is a denial of a part of the self and a need for self-realization) but the rest is a strange misappropriation of psychobabbble because the unconscious, best exemplified by the Hero's Journey can never be overcome and is a natural "metabolic" process. Freud and Jung both came to the conclusion that ego defense mechanisms are natural and healthy and that one should strive ultimately for the sublimation of unconscious stress that will persist as long as we exist, basically.

Furthermore, the process of actualization of the "Undiscovered Self" is referred to as the process of individuation and the processes of several less mature ego defense mechanisms are recognized as failing to distinguish the ego and the other into a meaningful dichotomy (Freud often speaks of the "child-like megalomania" in less mature ego defense mechanisms and that manifests itself in what we will colloquially refer to as varieties of either derealization or depersonalization to keep it relatively simple.)

The unconsciousness or plurality of consciousness is also completely unreadable when the comic is taken as a whole because Ultimate Selves are a good (singularity) but you say Dave's selves were doomed because of their singular consciousness. Either way, they would be a singularity as a gestalt, just on different scales. The collective unconscious is also, especially in Jung, viewed as something uniform so I think you've failed to establish a meaningful dichotomy even we were to dismiss wide swathes of the comic. Moreover, in classic psychology, there isn't a pervasive pattern on classifying actions as (relatively) rational or (relatively) egocentric, rather it is more about what is ego-adjacent and what is a self-defense mechanism against a perceived incongruity with the ego. Also, I'm not sure if your interpretation agrees with the idea that as an entity, for the story, SKAIA should be objectively bad and what it's doing is forcing kids to prematurely mature. You also weren't clear if you even though the pattern of behavior it was enforcing (though the logic is somewhat incomprehensible) is good or right in any sense beyond just servings its own aims.

My false selves would be represented by the obsessions of the Guardians who are try to provoke their children to "identify (but not accept") the Shadows of their archetypes. The Denizens are the Anima/Animus. SKAIA is ultimately just trying to force the maturation process of the ego- and that's a bad thing. Children should be allowed to grow on their own with a genocidal videogame and not to allow their personas to be met with the grandiose expectations of mythologization.
>>177
>Kind of like if you actually had the building blocks of "aspect"? Like grist???
In part, yes. Grist transferal and immutability should have been a far bigger part of the game and the comic.
>What do you suggest I read? Just so I have something to read while on break @ my job
Literally just pic related.


I have read a decently comprehensive book that was an overview on ego defense mechanisms, analyzing different models and frameworks regarding them post-Freud. I do mention more specific stuff in my "Rose is A WoS" document because it was fresher in my head then but ultimately, a tentatively academic grasp on ego defense mechanisms isn't really required to understand my ideal version of Homestuck or to make it work barring maybe one big example because there is a lot of thematic weight and potential overlap with other "cool symbolic things" to tie into.

>>179
I'll just call each of your responses by paragraphs instead of quoting it entirely just to save space

>p1
I do apologize if I used terms incorrectly since I'm more in the study of engineering so I'm not too familiar or too like academically adept to Jung, as I mentioned before, whole deal with me just reading little by little, so maybe it will eventually evolve into a fuller more comprehensive idea.

>p2
Is that not what almost all the kids go through though? At least most alternative timelines seem to fail to distinguish the ego eventually? Again, John being indirectly killed by Terezi, Alternate Timeline Daves…

>p3
as an fyi i don't consider the epilogues canon and I just don't bother with them, I genuinely will just not consider them canon lol

returning back to what you were saying however, I wouldn't say SKAIA is a good or bad force, it's just a force that exerts pressure to serve its interest ambiguously, some may view it as good, others may view it as bad, it's viewed favorably by some and vice versa for others – when it comes to enforcing the pattern of behavior, it is just molding the characters into the class they were supposed to be, kind of like a combination of all their habits into a specific class.
My best example for this would be Eridan, where he spent most of his time in the game session killing angels, thus, filling the vessel of the prince using his soul and reinforcing his own will with the will of SKAIA, his ideology went unchallenged ""in the game session"" because that's what he was always meant to do, he never was meant to be a snooty or passive person like kanaya or tavros respectively

mainly the idea is that SKAIA is just neutral and allowing people to become the truest version of themselves
truest version of themselves -> combination of all habits
if someone is hateful, when they enter sburb, they will amplify that hatred and eventually become a bard through eventuality for example, or if someone's very passionate they would become a heir. Of course, i'm super simplifying here but I hope you understand my gist of what i'm going for here

>p4
I would argue against the idea that guardians are the shadows as that's more externally true than internally true, i would consider the sprites to be a better representation because they hold a sort of intent that the kids wish to achieve (and eventually become)
ie. Nannasprite being carefree, john following in her footsteps
davesprite going through the process of understanding and pushing his alpha self to do his best,
Jadesprite basically being what GREEN could never properly express
Rose wishing to be as knowledeagble and mysterious like Jaspersprite…
Like, they're all inherently "taboo"* to the kids, whether it is to show extreme emotion, to be free from shame being shameless or just being overly knowledgeable and intentionally hiding the information
* (not in a fetish taboo but as in societal taboos that wouldn't be done with strangers, per se because the sprites are inherently, strangers to the kids)

for the other two archetypes however, I'd need to think about it further because I honestly think the denizens are just another component of Skaia, but not really representing anything beyond that since they're just a game asset. Again, component of Skaia.

>Children should be allowed to grow on their own with a genocidal videogame and not to allow their personas to be met with the grandiose expectations of mythologization.

This is true, but Skaia does not discriminate. We do get an implication that older people also had entered the game, which would in turn make the process of mythologization a bit easier, but we were left with 13 year olds instead lol

>Grist transferal and immutability should have been a far bigger part of the game and the comic.

To be fair the fandom did dig their own grave by wishing more character interactions, Andrew is well known for kneeling down to whoever is the strongest, he serves for others after all, even with Psycholonials he kneeled for the fandom to pay attention to him and fed into their delusions, especially in later chapters lmfao



if only the fandom were more long-term thinking…

>ego defense mechanisms, analyzing different models and frameworks regarding them post-Freud.
Hmm. Maybe the more I read the more i'll eventually cascade into the same conclusion. I dunno though

>>179

btw sorry for not mentioning it before, thanks for the book

>>180
>At least most alternative timelines seem to fail to distinguish the ego eventually?
Davesprite can be considered a less egocentric version of Dave though that's splitting hairs. Ego death seems more incidental to the fact that you realize that you're fucking doomed and that's seen a couple of times (Vrissy and the cannon fodder Ghost Army come to mind.) I don't think this holds much weight as a theory.

If we're talking ideals, then why is this your ideal Homestuck?

>as an fyi i don't consider the epilogues canon >>134
and I just don't bother with them, I genuinely will just not consider them canon lol
Ultimate Selves as a concept are still more or less in Act 6 Act 6 Act 6.
>mainly the idea is that SKAIA is just neutral and allowing people to become the truest version of themselves
Not a fan.
>ie. Nannasprite being carefree, john following in her footsteps
The Sprites are not the Guardians and I don't think the Sprites would be a good analog for Shadows because they are of the Kids' creation. They are anything unconscious extensions of them which should be what SBurb should be about (Synchronicity would be the previous session affecting the unpredictability within alchemy and enantiodromia being prototyping affecting the enemies)
>Jadesprite basically being what GREEN could never properly express
Jadesprite is a literal "shadow" of GREEN in that she only had a fraction of experiences that the real GREEN had and was thus less developed as person. Relating that to a Jungian Shadow is kind of dumb, yes, there is ultimately a part of Jadesprite that is in GREEN that she wouldn't want to admit but that's because of mitigating circumstances (which is not how this should work- it should be strongly metaphorically rooted and then take on additional layers. Classic psychology, especially Jungian, is very essentialist- the Shadows should exist before the Kids enter the game and be represented beforehand and be more metaphorical.)
>Rose wishing to be as knowledeagble
Applies to all Sprites.
>for the other two archetypes however, I'd need to think about it further because I honestly think the denizens are just another component of Skaia, but not really representing anything beyond that since they're just a game asset. Again, component of Skaia.
It'd be more metaphorical in my version. I gave all the Kids' Gods of the opposite sex; there are ways we can represent the absence of parental figures and how that affect their psychosexual relationships without the mechanics being straight analogs (the point being that it's more analogous to alchemical processes which have psychological associations.)
>This is true, but Skaia does not discriminate. We do get an implication that older people also had entered the game, which would in turn make the process of mythologization a bit easier, but we were left with 13 year olds instead lol
"This is an example of Hu¢¢ie dropping ideas for haha silly self-indulgence."
>Hmm. Maybe the more I read the more i'll eventually cascade into the same conclusion. I
I'd have to find the specific book but obviously Freud and Jung do "click"; it's just not essential to the vision.

Not proof-reading this. Don't particularly care for this post.

>>182
>If we're talking ideals, then why is this your ideal Homestuck?
I can tell you why this is my ideal Homestuck. I like these themes, topics and the idea of "belief changing reality"" as a trope in fiction. A lot of this stems from my disappointment in Homestuck being the webcomic about "A story about a world-creating videogame using alchemy" ("A creation mythos with a lot of time travel") and simultaneously, my disappointment with Persona (past 2) as a series (and to a lesser extent Megaten as a whole) so I get to play with these themes and jargon with the level of respect and importance I think they deserve.

>>179
*infantile megalomania
Slit wrists, immediately.

>Egbert is a name that derives from old Germanic words meaning "bright edge", such as that of a blade. Anglo-Saxon variant spellings include Ecgberht (Old English pronunciation: [ˈedʒberˠxt]) and Ecgbert. German variant spellings include Eckbert and Ekbert.
This reminds me about the sword in John's magic chest. I used to think that it was the intended starting weapon of John to be allocated to his strife specibus as bladekind.

But looking at the old HS concept art it was clear that was never gonna happen, and Hu¢¢ie would have contrived it so that he would have ended up with the hammer anyway (and he would have later used a jackhammer, which might have been a nod to his original working-title name of Jack).

>>185
This ties into something I alluded to earlier- that some user requests were plants to make it seem like Hu¢¢ie was responding to feedback when he was just going with an existing plan. For example, I think most if not all of the original troll names were like this.

It's important to remember that Hu¢¢ie went into Homestuck with an existing fanbase. When he said that "usually user suggestions just happen to line up with what he's thinking", I think he's stretching the truth (lying) in two different ways. First, like I said he can just follow up on a short-term plan and people will go "wow such a great improviser" and second, he can stop in his tracks and shift, and change plans because of something someone said (it's very likely it's the same group people with this kind of sway.) In that way, I think we got the worst of both worlds.

>>186
Eeh, I say it was just outsourced thinking/planning to a devoted userbase more than backroom puppet-mastery. All of those MSPAF threads are likely wiped from existence by now, but he must've had tens if not hundreds of suggestions to pick through.
It's like throwing ideas at GPT today, for us nobodies.

>>186
The names Hu¢¢ie chose were all similar somehow to his planned names. Jack became John, Violet became Rose (a flower, and the name of a Roald Dahl character with a French surname), Dan became Dave (and not Chad), and Green became Jade (a green mineral also known as greenstone)

>>187
> All of those MSPAF threads are likely wiped from existence by now, but he must've had tens if not hundreds of suggestions to pick through.
"And for a reason."
>I say it was just outsourced thinking/planning to a devoted userbase more than backroom puppet-mastery
It was very likely half-and-half.
>>188
John (PROTAGONIST MAN NAME), Rose (probably a purple prose joke), and Dave (partially a Ninja Gaiden reference) are incidental. It all comes back to GREEN though; she's when the bullshit of the comic starts.

I had a "revelation" after my days of "reading a little bit but I feel too tired to do much of anything right now.

>Lacan's "sinthome" concept, which involves confronting one's inherent lack and constructing meaning is generally the goal act of his psychoanalysis. To be content in privation and not really having a place for your ideas or personal meanings and wants and knowing society will never provide it. Getting there in sessions and analysis is a very difficult and time consuming sort of process
What's fucked is I think Hu¢¢ie started out that way
>Bowman was talking about the old forum times where he'd get into arguements with him
About wanting a wiki (Bowman whined about a wikipedia page or something?) and interviews and for Homestuck to be more 'Official'
>Where Hu¢¢ie basically told him to eat shit and that quote
"Homestuck is not that kind of project."
"I'm afraid of commitment." - le me.
>More like "I need to be Indie so bad that I will murder this project if it ever goes mainstream"
He never evolved from hipster-ass Dave. - le me.
>Basically.

>>218
Ah, I fucked up the meme Doritos, but whatever.

It's an important factoid from #deeplore friend.

>>218
Just dropping off the context and bouncing.

>>109
I've deliberated on giving this a proper response for far too long.

I originally had a much longer post in response to this but I'll keep this very simple.

Homestuck was always about overlapping rulesets and trying to find loopholes by criss-crossing them. The characters' interests intersect with certain rulesets and those interests (which are sometimes intellectual or philosophical theories) and intellectual and philosophical theories have symbolic value beyond just being frameworks because the comic is about symbols themselves. At the end of the day, Homestuck is time-travel and alchemy in a videogame; it needs rules and there are rules out there that fit its needs as a story thematically and functionally.

Fuck you.

This is the other post I put off for far too long. Nobody really cares about what I have to say, Solluxchud is like 10% of the site userbase and 30% of this board specifically so his explicit disapproval is demoralizing, and I don't exactly have anyone that can help so I'm not exactly dedicated to the /hhg/ grind.

Sometimes I wonder how much of Hu¢¢ie's bullshit was mindless self indulgence and ineptitude and how much was "getting lost in the sauce" of hazy recollections of poststructuralism, deconstruction, and postmodernism- understandings of these ideas, blurry as they might be, still more cogent and nuanced than any resident Wikipedia intellectual Hu¢¢ie defender's conceptualizations. This varies from like 40-to-60 on either end.

That being said, Hu¢¢ie doing a shitty job at intellectualizing his comics with vague concepts from movements I have contempt for may explain why everything is convoluted and attempting to analyze it is infuriating. It does not explain why Homestuck is so fucking boring. In all the above schools of thought, having fun is basically praxis. And no one was having fun by the end of Homestuck, least of all the creator- most damningly, by his own admission.

I don't think Hu¢¢ie was very flipping through textbooks; what he seemed to have a grasp of was philosophy 101 prereq stuff. "Everything is a symbol of a symbol, fuck grand narratives, here's a grand narrative about how topos hyperboros does actually lead to the truth in God except he's a giant skeleton that wants to kill you" is not that complex. I'm not even saying it's even gnostic despite the often-made superficial comparison.

It's more just typical JRPG shenanigans and "Yeah, maybe, he had some friends feeding him some basic college goodness.” And, even still, every time I think of a way to frame Homestuck as shitting on essentialism, I remember the last minute inclusion of Ultimate Selves to force a sort of quasi-aporia like it needs to do a postmodern checklist. "Nothing matters, everything is arbitrary, but also, ultimately, you are still universally yourself."

The working theory was that he was at a fork in the road with Plato and Jung and instead of making an executive decision, he just crumpled in on himself with the greatest intellectualization for noncommittal possible.

>>221
I would like to approach this from an angle of Lacan to propose this conception of 'Rules and structure' is a Jungian trap that Hu¢¢ie is grillng. He embodies the Name of the Father in the work via this, but ultimately the comic works to trounce this rather than reinforce it in retrospective. The comic brings to mind old point and click Adventure games which do thrive off those rules and Hu¢¢ie makes a point to deconstruct and interrogate them.

However, I also argue this is a negative for Hu¢¢ie's personal development as an author and artist and symptomatic of his own failings and irresponsibility. The opposite of games like Earthbound that culminate in a healthy respect for the Paternal Metaphor concept. It's a moral failing of Homestuck to make this artistic choice. It's steeped in the deep cynicism and negativity of the author's outlook and has lead inversely to anything constructive in what it's teaching.

>>221
>overlapping rulesets
>comic is about symbols themselves
>time-travel
"An elaborate creation mythos involving lots of time travel."
>>223
>this conception of 'Rules and structure' is a Jungian trap that Hu¢¢ie is grillng.
Possibly, my theory (or reconstruction if that makes the skeptic feel more comfortable) was about how the game was forcing the kids too quickly and too tightly into their Jungian Personas but that was (mostly) dropped pretty quickly.

I think a bigger factor is that this is just a slightly more heady version of what he finds funny. Imposing arbitrary rules on the reader inputs and seeing how they get around it. Except he would write more of it this time, and with more defined characters.

But I think there's a big hole in your theory about Hu¢¢ie being that focused on deconstructing one (1) guy. He made his strawman, Rose, a Freud fangirl. Even her cat is named after Jaspers, not Jung. I feel like if this was his direct thought process, he would have gone straight for the throat. He's not one for subtlety when it comes to things like this.

>>223
For simplicity sake, The Name of the Father is a lacanian dogma that relates to Castration. Castration is an element of pseudo bio-mythistication that entails the separating of the subject from instinct and the replacement of Language, i.e. social bond to signal reification/solidarity and control drives. This is said to happen developmentally when a secondary parent comes between the first parent and the child, i.e. denying them their primary demands and inducing the way for desire, which is what the Name of the Father embodies in a mutual linguistic way.
Let's take the elements early in the comic that he has the kids devote to and share: Squiddles, Con Air and 90s cinema, furries and Rap battles. Fairly basic things that children share! One of the earliest way kids learn to perform the Name of the Father is with toys and imaginative hobbies. These introductions are pitched as creative and constructive aspects in their Jungian alchemy (Lacan might call it symbolic space but we'll digress).

Take John's literal dad and his baking. How does does the movie convey his dad loves him? By shoving cakes in his face and baking them for him. A strange, but abstracted and very straightforward paternal sigil.

These devolve into a punchline later on in the comic, and are heavily treated as either laudable and worthy of mockery at best, or malicious and stunted at growth. The problem is that Hu¢¢ie does not offer any sort of aspect of the Fatherhood metaphor in place: Everything that we spend time with our protagonist bonding them together as awkward, nerdy kids and connecting them as characters is deconstructed and treated as destructive, damaging or weird and creepy.

Take Hu¢¢ie's usage of Yiffy. Furries in the real world are a fandom that, despite its many perceived creepy and disgusting facets that often make it a taboo in pop culture (fursona is literally slang for fucking), are a group of people that band together around a concept of the Father Name. Hu¢¢ie ruthlessly mocks this with the naming of the character, and anything else that serves as a symbolized bond in language is seen through a lens of religion, irony or parody, disgust and cynicism.

>>224
I think that would've been a very clever lesson (Growing up too quickly), but the comic goes in the opposite direction. More in the way of "Literally any kind of growing up or struggling together and finding shared challenges is maladaptive, deceitful and a lie that Sburb/Society forces upon you that you should resist at all cost."

He doesn't just break rules for the sake of it in his comic or patterns, half the time it's really just pettymoves to get back at readers for expecting a certain thing or believing any cohesion could help readers identify with his comic. And given this constant fight against identification, coincidentally also a big lacanian Sintomatic thing, he veers on the psychotic as far as structure goes. Any sort of growing milestones or rituals are painted with negativity, bonding with suspicion, to where even something as innocent as a Birthday is the ultimate omen of caprice.

> He made his strawman, Rose, a Freud fangirl
At the beginning yeah, but by the ending contrary to what you may think he lampoons and tears that away from Rose by the end and throws it 'in the bad' with the other supposed-childish hobbies and interests that he regards as risible.

It's possible he had a straightforward structuralist narrative in mind and grew to subvert it out of bitterness by the end, but his deconstruction completely undermines Homestuck entirely into an anti-social farce.

>>225
I do think there are a few positive showings of 'Adulthood' and growth that he portrays, but they are instantly recognizable as refusals of instinct/drive and not desire, i.e. without a pure social component but singular self improvement.

Criticism against Drugs, religious fundamentalism, intoxication. This is not really a prompted response for social cohesion or the Paternal Metaphor's link- It's perfectly normal to teach a dog or some pet this, as far as self-control. But it has nothing to do with desire or their notions of love/death as far as the bifurcation of the unconscious goes.

>>225
Think of films from the 80/90's, where the Name of the Father concept is always embodied by characters that help the protagonist grow up as social substance: ET, the Terminator, talking dogs, Falkor. It's not hard to understand how this furthers the idea of children understanding relationship by a shared meaning, something beyond any intrinsic human-independent domain. It would've been easy to use this in many places: The trolls, the guardians, the planet inhabitants and reptiles, even the basic exiles and friends.

Basically I'm saying if ET was in Homestuck, Hu¢¢ie would've had the kids shoot him in the face by Act 6 and celebrate with some bizarre and cynical message that 'Stuff like this is holding you back and what sburb WANTS and the only way forward is to literally throw Falkor into a woodchipper so you can be an irony-poisoned asshole rather than a scared little 8ITCH that needs rituals or any talismans to express meaning with the Other.'

>>225
>I think that would've been a very clever lesson (Growing up too quickly)
Yeah, if you read my posts here, that's one of my most central themes posited.
>At the beginning yeah, but by the ending contrary to what you may think he lampoons and tears that away from Rose by the end and throws it 'in the bad' with the other supposed-childish hobbies and interests that he regards as risible.
Actually, he kind of does the opposite and vindicates Rose by making her right about all baseless conjecture regarding Dave- which, as I've said before, was likely done just to prop up (and perhaps unintentionally Flanderize) Dave as a comedic prop.

But, yes, any hobby that Hu¢¢ie doesn't engage in himself (which is basically anything besides playing videogames and doing le ironies) is treated with some level of derision. I disagree; I think that's basically a thing straight from the offset because Hu¢¢ie is an asshole.
>It's possible he had a straightforward structuralist narrative in mind and grew to subvert it out of bitterness by the end, but his deconstruction completely undermines Homestuck entirely into an anti-social farce.
"Yeah, we know."


I'm glad you're finally posting here and maybe you need to get this out into the air but I'd rather this thread be "Huh, looks like that was a dropped plot point" and "Here's where Hu¢¢ie got this idea" and "Here's where Hu¢¢ie changed plans" and all my reconstructionism ideas as opposed to the same tepid "Homestuck is a blackhole of joy" soliloquies we tend to go on.

>>228
I think as far as Dave that's just his way of having his cake and eating it too. Saying that his weird incestuous obsession (def not one of Hu¢¢ie's obsessions) is so clearly obvious that even if Psychoanalysis and Freud is so clearly obviously wrong that we can see it for ourselves and don't need cocaine using beardies to tell us that.

>I'm glad you're finally posting here and maybe you need to get this out into the air but I'd rather this thread be "Huh, looks like that was a dropped plot point" and "Here's where Hu¢¢ie got this idea" and "Here's where Hu¢¢ie changed plans" and all my reconstructionism ideas as opposed to the same tepid "Homestuck is a blackhole of joy"

I don't know if this aspect was a late addition or not, but I'm saying either way it seems like Hu¢¢ie either changed his mind on the Jungian Rules and structure you spoke about or always intended to refute it rather than push it genuinely.

I might want to try to organize my media theories on here. If I can workup the care and my usual fatigue to post them in an imageboard format.

>>230
>Hu¢¢ie either changed his mind on the Jungian Rules and structure you spoke about or always intended to refute it rather than push it genuinely.
Again, I think the original M.O was that Jung was mostly valid, it's just that it's this God machine (something inhuman; the digital age) forcing the natural process to progress too quickly.

As a matter of fact, that might be where the latent cancer symbolism came from since we know Hu¢¢ie intended to do the trolls as a separate comic before he hit his head, and we can reasonably assume that they were always intended to have created the Kids' universe. Karkat's handle would have broader symbolic relevance than the really forced layers of bullshit culpability we have to go through to make Karkat technically (partially) responsible for Bec Noir.

Also, this goes in line with what we were talking about Homestuck before but I really think people undermine Dave's shirt getting cut as a character moment for Dave.

At most you get that Dave learns Bro isn't so great but that's not what it's fucking about. Dave had already that moment when he sliced up Bro's puppets. Dave's arc is not about Bro, it's about more than just Bro. All of the Kids' arcs were (or should have been) like that. Dave's shirt getting cut by Bro should have some pretty obvious symbolism to it- it's about Dave giving up on the irony shit all together, and learning that this recursive ironic bullshit is self-indulgent and that it's better to just embrace things you genuinely enjoy. "The record stops repeating because it's scratched."

But, I think, I had an epiphany that Hu¢¢ie had no idea how to write Dave post-"ironyman" stage and that's why Act 3 is the split in the comic. Hu¢¢ie couldn't conceive of a Dave that isn't ironic in the way he could conceive of a less guarded John or Rose because Hu¢¢ie couldn't conceive of a version of himself that was less ironic.

Everyone agrees about the mini arcs with John learning that Dad is just a guy (and thus is completely sincere with him) and Rose "learns to put trust in a friend" (quote from Hu¢¢ie himself)- and these are things that we more or less go back on, at least, especially, with Rose- but nobody acknowledges Dave's micro arc.

Because you can't recognize it as an arc under the premise of Homestuck actually fucking working because "we go back on it" and it's the only one of the Kid's arcs that sort of vaguely lingers as an afterthought through the entire comic where Dave finally has a sit-down that maybe Bro isn't so great at the very end of Act 6 (whereas Rose just doesn't learn her lesson symbolically and only "gets it" once Mom gets axed- which is of course, just sloppy writing- and then copes with the fact that she was being sincere by doing retarded shit. If Dave's arc was repeated then Rose's arc was just slowed down for no real reason and then shoved in her face out of spite by the writer for nebulous reasons. And then by the end of the comic, does Rose really trust people any more? Do we get some big moment showcasing that? Not really. Dave gets his big symbolic fuck-off to Bro in Collide since that's what his arc was really about; "Fuck Bro", not distancing himself from his ironic persona in any way) even though we already got that point and symbolically got something even deeper than that.

Once again, I can't iterate enough how much of Homestuck was ruined just directly ruined because of Dave.

>>233
>Once again, I can't iterate enough how much of Homestuck was just directly ruined because of Dave.
Slight typo. Double ruined.

I wonder if stuff like John liking magic tricks or Rose being a goth that lives in a lavish mansion were just things ripped directly from the original Sims. Not that we can really prove it or not or that it matters all that much. But again, another thing that points to things starting to fall apart when Dave got introduced because Hu¢¢ie's hand started to stray from his primal inspirations.

>>235
Reminder that one of the default Sims in The Sims 3 STRONGLY resembles Rose, Rose Lalonde.

A lot of stuff seems to me lifted from The Sims 3, actually. Like the generic object cube, and the grumpy moodlet icon being used as Karkat's face.

>>236
>>237
girlbait strikes again!

>>236
Post her.

>>237
>Like the generic object cube,
Oh, how I hate it. But presumably, Hu¢¢ie only played the original and has his cohorts of Hu¢¢ies inform about the shit in the later games. That's his typical M.O.

"Also, this reminds me of Hu¢¢ie's tard式神 manifesto against presumably, Maddox, and the deep evil unfunniness of pirates, and ninjas, and calling things gay.
Just realized that Dave is a ninja and Vriska and Eridan are pirates solely for this reason."

>>241
Also, while writhing in insomnia, (I think I've said this before) I had the broad idea that I think that Hu¢¢ie was making fun of the prevalence of mutants in the Marvel Universe because of X-Men by making virtually every troll a mutant and basing most of them (especially the earlier ones) on X-Men but I think, meta jokes, especially the ones in Homestuck, are basically jokes that are half-finished.

Like, I can't believe I'm saying this but you really needed someone like John to lampshade it by directly pointing it out in a silly way or you get no catharsis from recognizing it; it's not humor, it's just a fucking thing. Usually I would say that's "lowbrow" humor but it doesn't go far enough to be satirical so yes, it's just unfinished lowbrow humor. Make an actual joke instead of making a vaguely amusing parallel and making it SUPER SECRET, you fucking hackfraud.

Hu¢¢ie if human.

https://youtube.com/shorts/QOmw4D1svRA?si=eBMEpgqApyj2Oo3j

>>242
>woah, so you guys are like… the x-men! you guys are exactly like the x-men!
>WHAT. NO. WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT.

would it have been kino?

I feel like people would be way more interested in this concept if you gave it a simpler name, like a deconstruction of Homestuck and where it could have gone before Hu¢¢ie crashed out.

It just gets flak because most people on the internet are just here to fuck around and socialize, rather than decipher all of that.

>>244
No, it's not like that. That seems intentionally poorly written.

It's more like (I'm not the best at this so give me a breal);
theres one guy thats super strong and multiple of you guys are psychic and even terezi can like lick her screen is that a mutation?
NO.
I MEAN, PROBABLY NOT, I NEVER CARED TO FUCKING ASK. THAT'S KIND OF A SHITTY QUESTION. NOT EXACTLY A GOOD ICEBREAKER AND AS AN INLET TO ANY ACTUAL CONVERSATION, SHE'D JUST USE TO GO FULL-FORCE INTO HER USUAL WEIRD SHIT
SO FUCK OFF. WHAT'S YOUR POINT?
i just have to wonder like you know how mutations work right?
what the hell is the cancer rate in your society? can your health care even cover all that?
whatever its just like xmen at this point theres so many mutants that not being a mutant is weird and you start to wonder why magneto hasnt just won yet due to sheer numbers
which i guess applies to you guys too
OUR GOVERNMENT USES GIANT ROBOTS TO CULL US.
yeah thats xmen too
but im still not buying it
ARE YOU SAYING MY SPECIES' ACTUAL REALITY IS BULLSHIT?
basically
yea

>>245
What concept?

>>247
Final proof you don't need the tags every line break.

>>250
I'll kill you.

>>251
Adjusted the formatting 4u

>>223
For a Virgo, Hu¢¢ie doesn't actually have (or display, let's say) much respect for anything.

>>253
"Like all good comedians."

>>248
The first two-thirds of this thread. The heuristics guy.

>>255
>The heuristics guy.
"Hermeneutics."

The point is to differentiate it from other things in the fandom. There are a lot of "deconstructions of Homestuck" that are myopic, self-indulgent pieces of shit that don't contextualize anything and jerk the comic off to the stars.

"Hermenutics" implies we're taking a good look at the author to try and understand the direction the comic took at each stage. Which most things revolving Homestuck just fucking don't because they assume Hu¢¢ie has some master thesis he's working towards- which is, of course, dumb because the comic was strongly BIZNASTY in the interplay between the fandom and the creator. Originally, it was through direct inputs and eventually it devolved into the pretentious cat-and-mouse game of pandering, subversion, and encryption to irritate or sate every disparate part of the fandom in alternating phases.

I've called it a "deconstruction" and "reconstruction" in this very thread. I just think people underestimate how many cooks there were in the broth with Homestuck and assume Hu¢¢ie was an infinite well of ideas (no matter how bad they may have been) and divine inspiration.

Also, personally, I just think calling something something "Homestuck Hermenutics" is funny because it asserts a level of prestige to Homestuck which, evidently, it doesn't fucking have- despite some of the fandom's protests. I hate basically 80% of this fucking thing and genuinely believe it to be something of objectively zero artistic merit at the end of the day.

Also, Homestuck sucks because Bro (especially), Dave, or Dirk never throw their sunglasses like shurikens like Wesker.

What the FUCK was Hu¢¢ie's problem?

What the fuck was up with god tiers representing maturity and the end of the coming-of-age story while simultaneously being extremely childish (colorful pajamas, the "kiddie camper handysash", etc)

>>258
In a way that slims the jargon down a bit, the synthesis of the ideal self (dreaming) and the actual self (waking) would be some kind of (Jungian) archetypal hero; this is basically just a hyperbolic version of what kids do with their existing personas though immaturely grandiose- this is part of why SBurb is meant to evil.

It should be noted that the most powerful class in the game is given to the most immature character who is literally developmentally and physically/sexually retarded. If Caliborn was human, he'd be a Downie whose brain couldn't past that of an eleven year old's and then he'd turn into a roid monster and start punching and shooting lasers everywhere.

>>259
(I tried to look up another mental impairment associated more with anger issues- because I remember there being one like that- because Down's syndrome is correlated with very high agreeability which doesn't fit Caliborn at all but whatever, everyone gets the point when you just say "Downie"…)

>>259
I doubt sburb is meant to be evil, it's just horrifically incompetent for some reason (the reason is Hu¢¢ie's incompetence)

Made the mistake of opening reddit
*inhales*
CALIBORN'S ENTIRE FUCKING THING IS THAT HE HYPERFOCUSES ON THE WRONG THINGS YOU FUCKING RETARD

Also "over a century or more" is fucking nothing to an immortal Lord Of Time.

>>261
>I doubt sburb is meant to be evil,
Here I would use "was." And I think it'd be a significantly better story if it "was evil." You're free to disagree with that but I have a lot of reasons and a lot of ideas about the (potential) story that connect to that.
>>262
A big part of SBurb is that it supports brute force over guile which is why Caliborn just coincidentally (as coincidental as predestination can be) enters into Godhood through sheer will to power. This is part of why SBurb is a shit because the one guy who gets the mandate to become God is a tepid excuse for a villain that goes "HNRRGGGHHHH ME HORNY, KILL MY FUCKING SISTER" like that's the only part of the prophecy about his defeat. It's also a key reason why Act 6 is shit.

Your villain is a moronic force of nature and yet nobody even outwits him, they just do exactly what he knows is going to happen.

I'm honestly surprised that Homestuck never capitalized on a Sburb-themed chess set.
Then again, I suppose it wouldn't be fun if the second player is destined to win without exception.

>>265
>Then again, I suppose it wouldn't be fun if the second player is destined to win without exception.
You don't need to play by that rule, silly.

One day, I want to go through "Homestuck Forgotten Facts" and rip it a new asshole. Maybe that should be alongside the piece-by-piece reread though.

Never realized how much Hu¢¢ie used the word 'cagey' in Homestuck. Wonder why.

>>282
He seems fairly private. Probably a word that comes up often with him.
Not that I can't relate

>>282
His vocabulary is incredibly limited unless he's reading straight from his thesaurus (which he definitely does NOT do even though a solid 30% of Homestuck's humor is predicated on big words, and/or awkwardly extensive, and/or antiquated way of saying things. You VVILL believe him.)

>>285
Has anyone compiled the most used words in Homestuck? I keep finding the 'word count' and 'amount of words that [insert character here] has said'.

>>286
I think it's "ass" by far (mostly because of compound words like big-ass and whatnot). I also think Dave and Karkat (the two biggest talkers) use "ass" the most, even despite Karkat being known as FUCKMAN.

ZOG made her into a gross lesbian, through some mechanism I don't fully understand.

—-

The classpect system doesn't work for anything beyond Homestuck since it was designed around specific creative-seeming combinations like Bard of Rage and Heir of Void. Fanworks don't have many combinations to choose from that are substantially different from what already exists.

>>289
>The classpect system doesn't work for anything
Full stop.

>>293
/hot/ is slow enough already, and every post on /ysg/ is a precious jewel to me. They can stay

Woops, they're all in Hell.

>>157
Again, I guess this is the part where I admit that 2perg was "right" or rather that I got off on the wrong foot. (I remembered because I was rereading my book on the train.) I wanted to apply structuralism to Homestuck to show how it fails at creating its own "structure" and by inductive reasoning, every framework for classes and aspects are logically incoherent; bullshit.. Let me actually attempt to do that now since all I said before was that was what I wanted to do.

To put it into simple terms, a large part of structuralism is things being defined by their opposite. The fact that there are not especially clear opposites in Homestuck already makes it a failure, there is a lot of overlap in Homestuck and while there is some consensus on the opposites with aspects (though there are still some outlier theories and again, a lot of overlap), nobody can agree on class dynamics (even though there are some clear pairs, they are not "opposites"- Thief and Rogue are a clear pair but they both still steal and there is no class that is said to "purely give".) "Passive" and "active" are terms whose exact definitions depend on the exact relation we're describing. Internal consistency goes out the window.

Furthermore, to reference the image, Homestuck's classes and aspects are not "transformative." Every model of a circular, transformative model of Homestuck's aspects is an even bigger clusterfuck (ever notice how the fandom cares far more about aspects than titles? It's because they're more abstract, there's more intellectual wiggle room while classes are titles which are supposedly intuitive but ultimately just as arbitrary) that jumps through inconsistent levels of abstraction and often has no rhyme or reason to the procession of its opposites (with some being directly related to each other through transformation while others are further away; the one exception where this would make sense is Time and Space but that's never the case.)

Finally, and most ironically, the system is not self-regulating because the Aspects are implied to be fundamental elements of reality as opposed to the (softly, not fully) subjectivist model of structuralism. The Aspects do not exist to self-regulate the game; they are metaphysical. (Then again, so is the game- whether all universes in Homestuck are created by the game is rather ambiguous- but the comic goes out of its to further Reify the Aspects into physical reality through Lord English's cracks in space.)

This is all an attempt to disprove any and every classpect theory. I chose structuralism because it was the most abstract, base model for well, "structures", possible. This makes it especially apt for Homestuck. All we needed was clear and intellectually consistent connectivity (pure, actual opposites- say if, Knight was someone who protected their Aspect and Heir was someone who is protected by their Aspect, but this is universally acknowledged as not their actual opposites. Let me chime in and say that the other pair in a hypothetical Homestuck would be "Witch" and "Maid"- one who attempts to undermine their Aspect and one who reinforces their Aspect.) and then we would work from there on the coherence. But we don't have that. We have a fundamentally broken and lazy system.

This is applying an intellectual framework to a story to explore how it doesn't work within it- and by extension, inductively why no system would work to "structure" it. I don't see why it's so wrong to then inverse it to try and make it fit. I've mentioned this before, this is just me actually proving it with a specific excerpt from my book.


>>296
*do it

>>296
Also, I guess this is to say that the depth of the critique of the comic with these concepts isn't so deep. It's just that the sheer scope of how I'd change the comic BIZNASTY off these ideas is. It's quite simple, really.

>>296
>Knight was someone who protected their Aspect
It's not?!?

>>296
>the other pair in a hypothetical Homestuck would be "Witch" and "Maid"
Missing the Miko! Unless we'd make that shrine(maid)en

>>301
"It is" very vaguely but I'm saying it would still be this in a theoretical new system where "Heir" is seen as its counterpart (it's not, neither really have clear ones; we can go over the examples of the pairs that people agree upon)
>>302
I wouldn't use those names. I think I've said in this thread that I'd completely use stock fantasy class names instead to make things more readable.

>>303

No Witches or Maids? Those are classic paydirt!

>>304
The idea (very recently revised) was to have the classpects as thus:
Paladin of Nike, Priestess for Apollo, Warrior from Leucothea, and Seer to Aeolus.

I'm trying to figure out the best synonym and preposition for GREEN to make both her rebelliousness and her precognition immediately clear or at least not have implied contradiction.

>>305
I was trying to make something happen with prepositions there too but I'd probably have to read more to make them meaningful.

Those are their new Denizens and what's actually important is the element they represent which is universal for all sessions despite using different pantheons (is how I'd do it.)

>>305
>>306
In fact, I might swap them around.

>>305
>>307
Mostly because "from" and "to" should be reserved for a pair of opposites but I can't think of another proper dichotomy for prepositions.

>>305
>>306
>>307
>>308
I guess "of" and "for" works because "for" implies they don't originate from the object and imply a sort of different cardinal momentum.

So it goes like this now:

Paladin to Nike. Priestess of Apollo. Warrior for Leucothea, and Seer from Aeolus.

Hope you enjoyed that mindless self-indulgence.

It should be noted that none of the Kids' grist types associate with their elements. You just get a ton of elongated hexagonal bipyramids, cubes, tears, and diamonds.

My system would have the polygons associated with the elements of the characters be their shapes of their grist (both for building and from battling- build grist should not exist; I'd restructure the game so that everyone needs to enter and be invaded in order to help the first player in the chain progress) with the exception of GREEN who gets the shape of aether which is her associated object.

None of this is relevant or internally consistent in Homestuck proper.

I can't sleep.